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	<title>Comments on: Changing Beliefs: Instantaneous or Gradual?</title>
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	<pubDate>Thu, 20 Nov 2008 09:30:23 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: How to achieve maximum personal growth &#124; The Winding Path</title>
		<link>http://thewindingpath.net/2007/01/15/changing-beliefs-instantaneous-or-gradual/#comment-2373</link>
		<dc:creator>How to achieve maximum personal growth &#124; The Winding Path</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Sep 2007 11:14:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://test.thewindingpath.net/?p=17#comment-2373</guid>
		<description>[...] Changing Beliefs: Instantaneous or Gradual? [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Changing Beliefs: Instantaneous or Gradual? [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Mark</title>
		<link>http://thewindingpath.net/2007/01/15/changing-beliefs-instantaneous-or-gradual/#comment-2237</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Sep 2007 21:37:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://test.thewindingpath.net/?p=17#comment-2237</guid>
		<description>Ha, no problem Jason, we're on the same page ;)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ha, no problem Jason, we&#8217;re on the same page <img src='http://thewindingpath.net/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /></p>
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		<title>By: Jason</title>
		<link>http://thewindingpath.net/2007/01/15/changing-beliefs-instantaneous-or-gradual/#comment-2236</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Sep 2007 16:08:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://test.thewindingpath.net/?p=17#comment-2236</guid>
		<description>What the heck... my brain apparently ignored a few words, and he said almost exactly the same thing, in your quote, even.  Oh well, sometimes my mind plays tricks on me... my subconscious apparently decided those words weren't important, and forgot to tell my conscious mind about it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What the heck&#8230; my brain apparently ignored a few words, and he said almost exactly the same thing, in your quote, even.  Oh well, sometimes my mind plays tricks on me&#8230; my subconscious apparently decided those words weren&#8217;t important, and forgot to tell my conscious mind about it.</p>
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		<title>By: Jason</title>
		<link>http://thewindingpath.net/2007/01/15/changing-beliefs-instantaneous-or-gradual/#comment-2235</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Sep 2007 15:56:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://test.thewindingpath.net/?p=17#comment-2235</guid>
		<description>Mark, I agree with you about the different types of beliefs... I was just disagreeing with which category that example belonged to.

I'm about to read that article, but for the quote, I totally agree with it, and would add that it doesn't just depend on the depth of the particular belief, but the depth of the other beliefs that are in the same "belief web"... hope you understand what I mean by that phrase.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mark, I agree with you about the different types of beliefs&#8230; I was just disagreeing with which category that example belonged to.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m about to read that article, but for the quote, I totally agree with it, and would add that it doesn&#8217;t just depend on the depth of the particular belief, but the depth of the other beliefs that are in the same &#8220;belief web&#8221;&#8230; hope you understand what I mean by that phrase.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark</title>
		<link>http://thewindingpath.net/2007/01/15/changing-beliefs-instantaneous-or-gradual/#comment-2228</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Sep 2007 06:35:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://test.thewindingpath.net/?p=17#comment-2228</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the suggestion Liara. I have ACIM on my shelf, I just haven't yet dived into it :)

btw Jason, I just stumbled upon what I was trying to say over on John Wilkins' &lt;a href="http://scienceblogs.com/evolvingthoughts/2007/08/tolerance_and_reason.php" rel="nofollow"&gt;blog&lt;/a&gt;, specifically:
&lt;blockquote&gt;But the likelihood of a belief being rejected is in inverse proportion to the depth and weight of the belief. A weighty belief that is deeply embedded in the belief web of an individual is the last to go under challenge.&lt;/blockquote&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the suggestion Liara. I have ACIM on my shelf, I just haven&#8217;t yet dived into it <img src='http://thewindingpath.net/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>btw Jason, I just stumbled upon what I was trying to say over on John Wilkins&#8217; <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/evolvingthoughts/2007/08/tolerance_and_reason.php" rel="nofollow">blog</a>, specifically:</p>
<blockquote><p>But the likelihood of a belief being rejected is in inverse proportion to the depth and weight of the belief. A weighty belief that is deeply embedded in the belief web of an individual is the last to go under challenge.</p></blockquote>
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		<title>By: Liara Covert</title>
		<link>http://thewindingpath.net/2007/01/15/changing-beliefs-instantaneous-or-gradual/#comment-2226</link>
		<dc:creator>Liara Covert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Sep 2007 06:12:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://test.thewindingpath.net/?p=17#comment-2226</guid>
		<description>You may find it exhilarating to read about the basis for perception and beliefs in A Course in Miracles (ACIM).  Its easy enough to decide you will correct distortions in your thinking.  Yet, to withdraw your faith in something, and decide to invest yourself only in what is true, you will first need a clearer understanding of what is false. Consciousness itself has been described as misperception.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You may find it exhilarating to read about the basis for perception and beliefs in A Course in Miracles (ACIM).  Its easy enough to decide you will correct distortions in your thinking.  Yet, to withdraw your faith in something, and decide to invest yourself only in what is true, you will first need a clearer understanding of what is false. Consciousness itself has been described as misperception.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark</title>
		<link>http://thewindingpath.net/2007/01/15/changing-beliefs-instantaneous-or-gradual/#comment-2224</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Sep 2007 02:25:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://test.thewindingpath.net/?p=17#comment-2224</guid>
		<description>Ooops, I thought I replied to this one. Sorry for the wait.

I suppose you're right, and I didn't make my point clear when differentiating classes of beliefs based on theory versus fact. I see what you mean, it's possible to consider something to be a fact, and base a belief on it, even if that fact is caused by flawed perception or understanding. As far as you see, it's still a fact.

What I was trying to say is that some beliefs may change faster than others because, at least as far as we perceive, they're based on concrete evidence, and strong enough evidence to counter the belief is likely to change it. On the other hand beliefs which are based on abstract concepts which have little or no concrete foundations, if firmly entrenched, are not easy to change, especially not quickly, because there's no clear foundational belief to alter. If you &lt;em&gt;do&lt;/em&gt; locate a core belief, and manage to change it quickly, it may &lt;em&gt;seem&lt;/em&gt; as if an instantaneous change has happened, but as far as I see it, as long as all the associated beliefs are still lingering, and influencing your thoughts and behaviour (as they often do), then the change is not complete until it cascades through all those other associated beliefs. I.e., a belief doesn't exist in isolation, and any single belief is really an amalgamation. Effectively changing a belief requires changing the entire group, though changing a core member of that group may feel like an epiphany.

And in case it sounds like I'm saying epiphanies are therefore bad, or false, that's not what I mean. They can be hugely motivational, and I strongly suspect that the friend who inspired this entry (and others like her) was so motivated by the epiphany that the core change effortlessly, but gradually, cascaded through the associated beliefs, leading to the impression that the change was instantaneous.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ooops, I thought I replied to this one. Sorry for the wait.</p>
<p>I suppose you&#8217;re right, and I didn&#8217;t make my point clear when differentiating classes of beliefs based on theory versus fact. I see what you mean, it&#8217;s possible to consider something to be a fact, and base a belief on it, even if that fact is caused by flawed perception or understanding. As far as you see, it&#8217;s still a fact.</p>
<p>What I was trying to say is that some beliefs may change faster than others because, at least as far as we perceive, they&#8217;re based on concrete evidence, and strong enough evidence to counter the belief is likely to change it. On the other hand beliefs which are based on abstract concepts which have little or no concrete foundations, if firmly entrenched, are not easy to change, especially not quickly, because there&#8217;s no clear foundational belief to alter. If you <em>do</em> locate a core belief, and manage to change it quickly, it may <em>seem</em> as if an instantaneous change has happened, but as far as I see it, as long as all the associated beliefs are still lingering, and influencing your thoughts and behaviour (as they often do), then the change is not complete until it cascades through all those other associated beliefs. I.e., a belief doesn&#8217;t exist in isolation, and any single belief is really an amalgamation. Effectively changing a belief requires changing the entire group, though changing a core member of that group may feel like an epiphany.</p>
<p>And in case it sounds like I&#8217;m saying epiphanies are therefore bad, or false, that&#8217;s not what I mean. They can be hugely motivational, and I strongly suspect that the friend who inspired this entry (and others like her) was so motivated by the epiphany that the core change effortlessly, but gradually, cascaded through the associated beliefs, leading to the impression that the change was instantaneous.</p>
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		<title>By: Jason</title>
		<link>http://thewindingpath.net/2007/01/15/changing-beliefs-instantaneous-or-gradual/#comment-2195</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Aug 2007 17:18:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://test.thewindingpath.net/?p=17#comment-2195</guid>
		<description>I understand what you're saying, but it was still based on facts... you believed that your memory was fundamentally flawed due to the fact that you had problems remembering (at least, I'm nearly certain of this... having a belief that your memory is fundamentally flawed spring up full-formed seems a bit odd).  It may not have been made based on scientific understanding but you had facts, the fact that there were things you wanted to remember that you could not.  When you found contradictory facts, you re-evaluated that belief based on new evidence... now you COULD remember things.  The fact that you learned that your previous theory was based on flawed reasoning doesn't mean that it wasn't based on facts, or at least something that you perceived as a fact, which is, in talking about beliefs, essentially the same thing.

What I'm saying, basically, is that if you hadn't had the facts of not remembering things you wanted to remember, would you have had the belief that your memory was faulty?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I understand what you&#8217;re saying, but it was still based on facts&#8230; you believed that your memory was fundamentally flawed due to the fact that you had problems remembering (at least, I&#8217;m nearly certain of this&#8230; having a belief that your memory is fundamentally flawed spring up full-formed seems a bit odd).  It may not have been made based on scientific understanding but you had facts, the fact that there were things you wanted to remember that you could not.  When you found contradictory facts, you re-evaluated that belief based on new evidence&#8230; now you COULD remember things.  The fact that you learned that your previous theory was based on flawed reasoning doesn&#8217;t mean that it wasn&#8217;t based on facts, or at least something that you perceived as a fact, which is, in talking about beliefs, essentially the same thing.</p>
<p>What I&#8217;m saying, basically, is that if you hadn&#8217;t had the facts of not remembering things you wanted to remember, would you have had the belief that your memory was faulty?</p>
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		<title>By: Mark</title>
		<link>http://thewindingpath.net/2007/01/15/changing-beliefs-instantaneous-or-gradual/#comment-2194</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Aug 2007 04:33:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://test.thewindingpath.net/?p=17#comment-2194</guid>
		<description>Jason: The fuel for that belief was that my memory was flawed. Not simply poorly used, but fundamentally flawed. That was an belief based on misunderstanding (and ignorance), not fact, and there was no evidence to support it other than my poor memory (but "I believe my memory is bad because my memory is bad" is not much of an argument...) If I'd based my belief on knowledge of how memory works then I would agree with you (though if I did have the same knowledge I do now, I'd probably hold the same belief I do now).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jason: The fuel for that belief was that my memory was flawed. Not simply poorly used, but fundamentally flawed. That was an belief based on misunderstanding (and ignorance), not fact, and there was no evidence to support it other than my poor memory (but &#8220;I believe my memory is bad because my memory is bad&#8221; is not much of an argument&#8230;) If I&#8217;d based my belief on knowledge of how memory works then I would agree with you (though if I did have the same knowledge I do now, I&#8217;d probably hold the same belief I do now).</p>
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		<title>By: Jason</title>
		<link>http://thewindingpath.net/2007/01/15/changing-beliefs-instantaneous-or-gradual/#comment-2189</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Aug 2007 15:33:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://test.thewindingpath.net/?p=17#comment-2189</guid>
		<description>I think your example of memory actually DOES have a factual basis... we are unable to consciously remember things which we desire to remember (that's a fact).  You learned a new method to do so, and found that now you COULD remember (a contradictory fact).  So that's not an example of a belief with a non-factual basis.

I think the reason why non-factual beliefs take so long to change is that they are all interleaved.  In other words, I think non-factual beliefs tend to reinforce each other... your belief in your low self worth is tied to your belief that you don't do as well as you should, which is tied to your belief that your talents are not as important as other people's talents, etc.  The reason it takes so much work to change them, then, is because you have to change all of the interlinked beliefs at the same time.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think your example of memory actually DOES have a factual basis&#8230; we are unable to consciously remember things which we desire to remember (that&#8217;s a fact).  You learned a new method to do so, and found that now you COULD remember (a contradictory fact).  So that&#8217;s not an example of a belief with a non-factual basis.</p>
<p>I think the reason why non-factual beliefs take so long to change is that they are all interleaved.  In other words, I think non-factual beliefs tend to reinforce each other&#8230; your belief in your low self worth is tied to your belief that you don&#8217;t do as well as you should, which is tied to your belief that your talents are not as important as other people&#8217;s talents, etc.  The reason it takes so much work to change them, then, is because you have to change all of the interlinked beliefs at the same time.</p>
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